أين قبض على يسوع في حديقة جيثسماني أم في جبل الزيتون ؟!
Posted by Molka_Molkan في 12/12/2010
بستان جثسيمانى أم جبل الزيتون؟!
الشبهة
إنجيل مرقس (14: 32–43) أن المسيح ألقي القبض عليه من ضيعة اسمها (جتسيماني)
وإنجيل لوقا (22: 29–47) أن المسيح ألقي القبض عليه من جبل الزيتون!
ولتأكد من اختلاف جغرافية ضيعة (جتسيماني) عن جغرافية جبل الزيتون انظر (مت 26: 30 ومر 14: 26 و 32 ويو 18: 1) وانظر أيضاً خريطة أورشليم في أيام المسيح الموجودة في نهاية العهد الجديد، كي لا يدعي مدع أن ضعية جتسيماني = جبل الزيتون.
فلماذا التناقض فى اسم المكان؟
الرد المختصر :
بستان جثسيماني هو عبارة عن مكان به مجموعة من أشجار الزيتون التي تنموا على المحيط الخارجي لجبل الزيتون وهذا البستان يقع على جبل الزيتون ولكن عند اسفه اي موجود على حافته من الأسفل أثناء الصعود ، كلمة ” جثسيماني ” في اللغة الآرامية تعني ” oil press ” وهذا طبيعي ومنطقي جدا حيث أن جبل الزيتون يخرج لنا هذا النوع من الزيوت وبالتالي فهذا في حد ذاه دليل على قرب المكان كما قلنا أنه على فنس الجبل ولكن من الأسفل ، إذن لا توجد هناك شبة اللهم الا جهل طارحها بجغرافية فلسطين في هذا الوقت …
الرد التفصيلي :
لقد اجمعت الاناجيل الاربعة على البستان بستان جثسيماني:
1- انجيل متى 26: 36 يقول ثم ذهب يسوع وتلاميذه الى بستان يدعى جثسيمانى
2- مرقس البشير 14: 32 كتب ووصلوا الى بستان اسمه جثسيمانى
3- لوقا 22: 39 ثم انطلق وذهب كعادته الى جبل الزيتون وتبعه تلاميذه ايضا
4- انجيل يوحنا 16: 1 كتب بعدما انتهى يسوع من صلاته هذه خرج مع تلاميذه وعبروا الى وادى قدرون وكان هناك بستان
ومن هنا وبعد البحث ورؤية خرائط المكان نجد الاجماع على البستان واسمه
ما عدا لوقا والبحث فى الخرائط وجد ان بستان جثسيمان هو حديقة تدعى بهذا الاسم وهى موجودة فى وادى قدرون فى منطقة جبل الزيتون فالجبل والمنطقة التى تحيط به تسمى منطقة جبل الزيتون
وهذا لا ينفى ولا يثبت اى اختلاف على المكان ويمكن العودة الى مرجع التفسير التطبيقى للكتاب المقدس الذى يحوى المعلومات والخرائط الخاصة بالمنطقة
ونجد ان متى ومرقس قد ذكروا بالحرف بأن الرب يسوع قد خرج الى جثسيمانى..!
ولكن لوقا لم يحدد البستان.. ولكنه لم يحدد مكان آخر عند القبض على الرب يسوع
فلوقا لم يفصل الخبر واكتفى بذكر الجبل.. لا سيما بأن البستان هو من ضمن الجبل!!!
وهذا ليس بتناقض.
لأن بستان جثسيماني يقع في سفح جبل الزيتون!
مثال بسيط :
لو قرأت خبراً يقول:
لقد قبض المسلمون على راهب مسيحي وقتلوه في دير سانت كاترين!
ثم قرأت الخبر بصيغة اخرى هكذا:
لقد قبض المسلمون على راهب مسيحي وقتلوه في جبل سيناء ..!
فهل هذا الخبر بمنطقك يعتبر تناقضاً …؟!
مع كون دير سانت كاترين يقع في جبل سيناء..؟
موقع حديقة جيثسماني بالنسبة لجبل الزيتون
صورة ترجع الى الستينات من القرن التاسع عشر و توضح في المقدمة وادي القدرون الذي يفصل جبل الزيتون عن مدينة القدس و من الصورة نجد أن حديقة جيثسماني تقع في سفح جبل الزيتون و من الخلف نرى البلدة القديمة من القدس مع قبة الصخرة
أيضا صورة اخرى من الستينات للقرن التاسع عشر و تظهر منطقة جبل الزيتون و في غضون ذلك العديد من المباني قد بنيت في المنطقة و من بينها ايضا الكنائس.
و على الحافة اليسرى قبر مريم الذي يقع جزئيا تحت الارض حيث يمكن اكتشافه. و إثنين من الطرق المنحدرة تؤدي من وادي قدرون الى قمة جبل الزيتون، حيث يقع برج يسمى الروسي.و على اليمين هناك مجمع الجدران يشير إلى المكان التقليدي للحديقة الجيثسمانية
و على الحافة اليسرى قبر مريم الذي يقع جزئيا تحت الارض حيث يمكن اكتشافه. و إثنين من الطرق المنحدرة تؤدي من وادي قدرون الى قمة جبل الزيتون، حيث يقع برج يسمى الروسي.و على اليمين هناك مجمع الجدران يشير إلى المكان التقليدي للحديقة الجيثسمانية
(Hebrew: gath = winepress, shemen = oil, translated: oilpress)
و يتواجد هناك اشجار زيتون، بعض منها يرجع الى عدة مئات من السنين
صورة حقيقية لبستان جثسيماني
منظر باتجاه حديقة جيثسماني يضم معه ” كنيسة كل الأمم ” في الوسط
داخل حديقة الجيثسمانية ، وأشجار الزيتون وأوراق الشجر تقدم مشهد جميل وهادئ
على السفح الغربي لجبل الزيتون، حيث اعطى يسوع العظة على الجبل
منظر لوادي قدرون الى الشمال الشرقي باتجاه جبل الزيتون
ولنرى الأدلة :
1- Thayer’s Greek Definitions2- M.G. Easton, Easton’s Bible Dictionary
(“oil-press”.) Beyond the brook Kedron at the foot of the mount of Olives; where probably oil was made from the olives of the adjoining hill (Luk_22:39; Joh_18:1). Called a “place” or farm (choorion), Mat_26:36, to which probably the “garden” was attached. E. of Jerusalem, from the walls of which it was half a mile distant. It was the favorite resort of our Lord with His disciples (Joh_18:2), the shade of its trees affording shelter from the heat and the privacy so congenial to Him. Bethany lay on the E. of Jerusalem, and toward it our Lord led His disciples before the ascension. In Luk_24:50 the sense is, He led them to the side of the hill where the road strikes downward to Bethany; for Act_1:12 shows He ascended from the mount of Olives.
“Bethany probably includes not only the village but the district and side of the mount adjoining it; even still the adjoining mountain side is called by the same name as the village, el-Azariyeh. This reconciles Luk_24:50 with Act_1:12. Gardens and pleasure grounds abounded then in the suburbs (Josephus, B.J., 6:1, section 1, 5:3, section 32), where now scarcely one is to be seen. In Gethsemane “without the city” Christ “trod the winepress alone” (Isa_63:3; Rev_14:20). In these passages, however, He is the inflicter, not the sufferer, of vengeance; but in righteous retribution the scene of blood shedding of Christ and His people shall be also the scene of God’s avenging His and their blood on the anti-Christian foe (Rev_19:14).
The time of the agony was between 11 and 12 o’clock Thursday night (Friday morning in the Jews’ reckoning), two days before the full moon, about the Vernal equinox. The sites assigned by the Latins and Armenians and Greeks respectively are too near the thoroughfare to the city to be probable. Some hundreds of yards further up the vale and N.E. of Mary’s church may be the true site. The fact that Titus cut down all the trees round about Jerusalem (Josephus, B.J., 6:1, section 1) is against the contemporary ancientness of the eight venerable olive trees now pointed out. The tenth legion, moreover, was posted about the mount of Olives (5:2, section 3, 6:2, section 8); and in the siege a wall was carried along the valley of Kedron to the Siloam fountain (5:10, section 2). The olives of Christ’s time may have reproduced themselves
geth-sem´a-nē̇ (Γεθσημανεί, Gethsēmaneı́ (for other spellings and accents see Thayer, under the word); probably from the Aramaic gath shemānı̄m, “oil press”): Mentioned (Mat_26:36; Mar_14:32) as a place (chōnı́on), margin “enclosed piece of ground,” to which Jesus and the disciples retired after the last supper; in Joh_18:1 it is de***ibed as a “garden” (κῆπος, kḗpos), while Lk (Luk_22:40) simply says “place” (τόπος, tópos). From Joh_18:1 it is evident that it was across the Kidron, and from Luk_22:39, that it was on the Mount of Olives. Very possibly (Luk_21:37; Luk_22:39) it was a spot where Jesus habitually lodged when visiting Jerusalem. The owner – whom conjecture suggests as Mary the mother of Mark – must have given Jesus and His disciples special right of entry to the spot.
Tradition, dating from the 4th century, has fixed on a place some 50 yds. East of the bridge across the Kidron as the site. In this walled-in enclosure once of greater extent, now primly laid out with garden beds, by the owners – the Franciscans – are eight old olive trees supposed to date from the time of our Lord. They are certainly old, they appeared venerable to the traveler Maundrell more than two centuries ago, but that they go back to the time claimed is impossible, for Josephus states (BJ, VI, i, 1) that Titus cut down all the trees in the neighborhood of Jerusalem at the time of the siege. Some 100 yards farther North is the “Grotto of the Agony,” a cave or cistern supposed to be the spot “about a stone’s cast” to which our Lord retired (Luk_22:41). The Greeks have a rival garden in the neighborhood, and a little higher up the hill is a large Russian church. The traditional site may be somewhere near the correct one, though one would think too near the public road for retirement, but the contours of the hill slopes must have so much changed their forms in the troubled times of the first and second centuries, and the loose stone walls of such enclosures are of so temporary a character, that it is impossible that the site is exact. Sentiment, repelled by the artificiality of the modern garden, tempts the visitor to look for a more suitable and less artificial spot farther up the valley. There is today a secluded olive grove with a ruined modern olive press amid the trees a half-mile or so farther up the Kidron Valley, which must far more resemble the original Gethsemane than the orthodox site.
Gethsem’a-ne. (an oil-press). A small “farm,” Mat_26:36; Mar_14:32, situated across the brook Kedron, Joh_18:1, probably at the foot of Mount Olivet, Luk_22:39, to the northwest and about one-half or three quarters of a mile English from the walls of Jerusalem, and 100 yards east of the bridge over the Kedron.
There was a “garden,” or rather orchard, attached to it, to which the olive, fig and pomegranate doubtless invited resort by their hospitable shade. And we know from the evangelists, Luk_22:39, and Joh_18:2, that our Lord ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
But Gethsemane has not come down to us as a scene of mirth; its inexhaustible associations are the offspring of a single event — the agony of the Son of God on the evening preceding his passion.
A garden, with eight venerable olive trees, and a grotto to the north detached from it, and in closer connection with the church of the sepulchre of the Virgin, are pointed out as the Gethsemane.
Against the contemporary antiquity of the olive trees, it has been urged that Titus cut down all the trees about Jerusalem. The probability would seem to be that they were planted by Christian hands to mark the spot unless, like the sacred olive of the Acropolis, they may have reproduced themselves
11- Andrew Knowles, The Bible Guide, 1st Augsburg books ed12- Adam Clarke, Clarke’s Commentary: Matthew, electronic ed., Logos Library System; Clarke’s Commentaries
Gethsemane — oil-press, the name of an olive-yard at the foot of the Mount of Olives, to which Jesus was wont to retire (Luke 22:39) with his disciples, and which is specially memorable as being the scene of his agony (Mark 14:32; John 18:1; Luke 22:44). The plot of ground pointed out as Gethsemane is now surrounded by a wall, and is laid out as a modern European flower-garden. It contains eight venerable olive-trees, the age of which cannot, however, be determined. The exact site of Gethsemane is still in question. Dr. Thomson (The Land and the Book) says: “When I first came to Jerusalem, and for many years afterward, this plot of ground was open to all whenever they chose to come and meditate beneath its very old olivetrees. The Latins, however, have within the last few years succeeded in gaining sole possession, and have built a high wall around it … The Greeks have invented another site a little to the north of it … My own impression is that both are wrong. The position is too near the city, and so close to what must have always been the great thoroughfare eastward, that our Lord would scarcely have selected it for retirement on that dangerous and dismal night … I am inclined to place the garden in the secluded vale several hundred yards to the north-east of the present Gethsemane.”
3- Fausset’s Bible Dictionary
Gethsemane
(“oil-press”.) Beyond the brook Kedron at the foot of the mount of Olives; where probably oil was made from the olives of the adjoining hill (Luk_22:39; Joh_18:1). Called a “place” or farm (choorion), Mat_26:36, to which probably the “garden” was attached. E. of Jerusalem, from the walls of which it was half a mile distant. It was the favorite resort of our Lord with His disciples (Joh_18:2), the shade of its trees affording shelter from the heat and the privacy so congenial to Him. Bethany lay on the E. of Jerusalem, and toward it our Lord led His disciples before the ascension. In Luk_24:50 the sense is, He led them to the side of the hill where the road strikes downward to Bethany; for Act_1:12 shows He ascended from the mount of Olives.
“Bethany probably includes not only the village but the district and side of the mount adjoining it; even still the adjoining mountain side is called by the same name as the village, el-Azariyeh. This reconciles Luk_24:50 with Act_1:12. Gardens and pleasure grounds abounded then in the suburbs (Josephus, B.J., 6:1, section 1, 5:3, section 32), where now scarcely one is to be seen. In Gethsemane “without the city” Christ “trod the winepress alone” (Isa_63:3; Rev_14:20). In these passages, however, He is the inflicter, not the sufferer, of vengeance; but in righteous retribution the scene of blood shedding of Christ and His people shall be also the scene of God’s avenging His and their blood on the anti-Christian foe (Rev_19:14).
The time of the agony was between 11 and 12 o’clock Thursday night (Friday morning in the Jews’ reckoning), two days before the full moon, about the Vernal equinox. The sites assigned by the Latins and Armenians and Greeks respectively are too near the thoroughfare to the city to be probable. Some hundreds of yards further up the vale and N.E. of Mary’s church may be the true site. The fact that Titus cut down all the trees round about Jerusalem (Josephus, B.J., 6:1, section 1) is against the contemporary ancientness of the eight venerable olive trees now pointed out. The tenth legion, moreover, was posted about the mount of Olives (5:2, section 3, 6:2, section 8); and in the siege a wall was carried along the valley of Kedron to the Siloam fountain (5:10, section 2). The olives of Christ’s time may have reproduced themselves
4- International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Gethsemane
geth-sem´a-nē̇ (Γεθσημανεί, Gethsēmaneı́ (for other spellings and accents see Thayer, under the word); probably from the Aramaic gath shemānı̄m, “oil press”): Mentioned (Mat_26:36; Mar_14:32) as a place (chōnı́on), margin “enclosed piece of ground,” to which Jesus and the disciples retired after the last supper; in Joh_18:1 it is de***ibed as a “garden” (κῆπος, kḗpos), while Lk (Luk_22:40) simply says “place” (τόπος, tópos). From Joh_18:1 it is evident that it was across the Kidron, and from Luk_22:39, that it was on the Mount of Olives. Very possibly (Luk_21:37; Luk_22:39) it was a spot where Jesus habitually lodged when visiting Jerusalem. The owner – whom conjecture suggests as Mary the mother of Mark – must have given Jesus and His disciples special right of entry to the spot.
Tradition, dating from the 4th century, has fixed on a place some 50 yds. East of the bridge across the Kidron as the site. In this walled-in enclosure once of greater extent, now primly laid out with garden beds, by the owners – the Franciscans – are eight old olive trees supposed to date from the time of our Lord. They are certainly old, they appeared venerable to the traveler Maundrell more than two centuries ago, but that they go back to the time claimed is impossible, for Josephus states (BJ, VI, i, 1) that Titus cut down all the trees in the neighborhood of Jerusalem at the time of the siege. Some 100 yards farther North is the “Grotto of the Agony,” a cave or cistern supposed to be the spot “about a stone’s cast” to which our Lord retired (Luk_22:41). The Greeks have a rival garden in the neighborhood, and a little higher up the hill is a large Russian church. The traditional site may be somewhere near the correct one, though one would think too near the public road for retirement, but the contours of the hill slopes must have so much changed their forms in the troubled times of the first and second centuries, and the loose stone walls of such enclosures are of so temporary a character, that it is impossible that the site is exact. Sentiment, repelled by the artificiality of the modern garden, tempts the visitor to look for a more suitable and less artificial spot farther up the valley. There is today a secluded olive grove with a ruined modern olive press amid the trees a half-mile or so farther up the Kidron Valley, which must far more resemble the original Gethsemane than the orthodox site.
5- Smith’s Bible Dictionary by Dr. William Smith (1884)
Gethsemane
Gethsem’a-ne. (an oil-press). A small “farm,” Mat_26:36; Mar_14:32, situated across the brook Kedron, Joh_18:1, probably at the foot of Mount Olivet, Luk_22:39, to the northwest and about one-half or three quarters of a mile English from the walls of Jerusalem, and 100 yards east of the bridge over the Kedron.
There was a “garden,” or rather orchard, attached to it, to which the olive, fig and pomegranate doubtless invited resort by their hospitable shade. And we know from the evangelists, Luk_22:39, and Joh_18:2, that our Lord ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
But Gethsemane has not come down to us as a scene of mirth; its inexhaustible associations are the offspring of a single event — the agony of the Son of God on the evening preceding his passion.
A garden, with eight venerable olive trees, and a grotto to the north detached from it, and in closer connection with the church of the sepulchre of the Virgin, are pointed out as the Gethsemane.
Against the contemporary antiquity of the olive trees, it has been urged that Titus cut down all the trees about Jerusalem. The probability would seem to be that they were planted by Christian hands to mark the spot unless, like the sacred olive of the Acropolis, they may have reproduced themselves
6- New Living Translation Study Bible
Gethsemaneis the name of an olive orchard approximately 250 yards east of Jerusalem’s Golden Gate, overlooking the Kidron Valley on the edge of the Mount of Olives. Jesus and his disciples apparently met there often (Luke 22:39–40; John 18:1–2).
7- G. Jerome Albrecht and Michael J. Albrecht, Matthew, The People’s Bible
The name Gethsemane means “olive oil press.” Evidently the garden on the slope of the Mount of Olives was a place where they brought olives to be squeezed so that the oil could be sold. There was a ready market in the temple on the opposite side of the Kidron Valley.
8- John G. Butler, Analytical Bible Expositor
The Garden of Gethsemane was the place where Christ made this earnest appeal to God. Gethsemane was a small enclosed spot located at the foot of the Mount of Olives in which an olive press was located along with some olive trees. Gethsemane means “oil press.”
9- Richard B. Gardner, Matthew, Believers church Bible commentary
Gethsemane, which means oil press, was presumably a grove of olive trees on the western slope of the Mount of Olives (cf. “garden,” John 18:1). It is there that the final scene of the unit transpires.
10- Warren W. Wiersbe, The Bible Exposition Commentary
At the Mount of Olives was a private garden which Jesus often had used as a retreat (John 18:2). Gethsemane means “oil press,” a significant name in the light of our Lord’s agony in that Garden.
11- Andrew Knowles, The Bible Guide, 1st Augsburg books ed12- Adam Clarke, Clarke’s Commentary: Matthew, electronic ed., Logos Library System; Clarke’s Commentaries
A place called Gethsemane] A garden at the foot of the mount of Olives. The name seems to be formed from גה gath, a press, and סמן shemen, oil; probably the place where the produce of the mount of Olives was prepared for use. The garden of the oilpress, or olive-press.
13- Larry Chouinard, Matthew, The College Press NIV commentary
Gethsemane means “oil press” and most likely refers to an olive orchard on the slope of the Mount of Olives.21 The site was probably frequented by Jesus (cf. John 18:2; Luke 22:39–40) since Judas had no difficulty in finding him. In Gethsemane the intensity of Jesus’ resolve to yield to the Father’s will stands in vivid contrast to the disciples’ failure to appreciate the gravity of the situation.
21 J.B. Green, “Gethsemane,” DJG, p. 265.
14- John Lightfoot, A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica, Matthew-1 Corinthians: Volume 2, Matthew-Mark
Γεθσημανῆ· Gethsemane.] The place of the olivepresses, at the foot of mount Olivet. In Johnf, it is “a garden beyond Cedron.” “Theyg do not make gardens or paradises in Jerusalem, because of the stink, ·משום
f Chap. 18:1.
g Bava Kama, in the place above.
15- D. A. Carson, “Matthew”, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Volume 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein
Gethsemane” (v. 36) means “oil press,” and here probably gave the name to the chōrion (“place”), usually a field or an enclosed piece of ground (cf. John 18:4 “went out”) to which it was attached. Jesus and his disciples often frequented this spot (John 18:12) on the western slopes of Mount Olivet, separated from Jerusalem by the Kidron
16- Stuart K. Weber, Matthew, Holman New Testament Commentary; Holman Reference
The place called Gethsemane, on the west slope of the Mount of Olives, faced Jerusalem. The name means “olive press,” so it may have been an olive grove with its own press. Jesus left eight disciples in one place, while he and his inner circle of disciples—Peter, James, and John—went a little further for the purpose of prayer
17- Craig S. Keener and InterVarsity Press, The IVP Bible Background Commentary : New Testament
They may have arrived at Gethsemane by 10 or 11 p.m. (which was well into the night in that culture). Gethsemane seems to have included an olive grove and probably an olive press (hence its name, which means “oil press”); it was on the western slope or base of the Mount of Olives, facing Jerusalem. Because Passover night had to be spent within the larger boundaries of Jerusalem, which did not include Bethany, they would not return to Bethany that night (21:17).
18- King James Version Study Bible ., electronic ed.
Gethsemane means “Olive Press” and was a lush garden east of the city near the slopes of the Mount of Olives.
19- KJV Bible Commentary
The scene in the Garden of Gethsemane is one of the most moving in all the New Testament. Gethsemane means “olive press” and was a lush garden east of the city near the slopes of the Mount of Olives.
20- Bruce B. Barton, Matthew, Life application Bible commentary
This gardenlike enclosure called Gethsemane, meaning “olive press,” was probably an orchard of olive trees with a press for extracting oil. The garden was in the Kidron Valley just outside the eastern wall of Jerusalem and just below the Mount of Olives.
21- Edward A. Engelbrecht, The Lutheran Study Bible
Gethsemane. Walled garden where olives were pressed for oil. On the lower western reaches of the Mount of Olives, across the Kidron Valley to the east of Jerusalem. Jesus and His disciples frequently met here (cf Jn 18:2).
22- Roger L. Hahn, Matthew: A Commentary for Bible Students
The inability of the disciples to keep their promise will soon be evident. Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, apparently on the lower western slope of the Mount of Olives (26:36). Gethsemane is Hebrew for olive press and may have been a central oil press used by the many olive farmers who had olive groves on the Mount of Olives.
23- R. T. France, Matthew: An Introduction and Commentary, Tyndale New Testament Commentaries
Gethsemane (meaning ‘oil-press’) was a ‘garden’ (John 18:1), perhaps an enclosed olive-orchard, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives
24- John F. Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come
Having left the city of Jerusalem, and having crossed the Kidron Valley, Jesus was now at the foot of the Mount of Olives. They had come to a place called Gethsemane, meaning “oil press,” probably located in a grove of olive trees for the purpose of pressing oil from the olives. Visitors today are shown a place called Gethsemane at the foot of the Mount of Olives
Jesus and his disciples come to Gethsemane. This is an olive grove or garden on the slopes of the Mount of Olives. It is a favourite place with Jesus. At any other Passover they might spend the night there, camping out as pilgrims at the festival.
Rosetta
Gethsemane = “an oil press”
1) the name of a place at the foot of the Mount of Olives, beyond the torrent Kidron
Part of Speech: noun proper locative
مـــدونـــة الأوهـــام الإســلامـــيــــة 
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